The great European debate.

Primary progressive MS
#1

Hello.

Today has been wet and miserable so I have put together some thoughts about the EU referendum. It’s not a serious view. I just think the endless pomposity of the main players needs a bit of exposure. It reflects all that is ludicrous in today’s political scene. It may well have been like this since time began.

I appreciate the position is crucial and could affect us in many ways. But I’m rather fed up of pointless hype, personal brinkmanship and drum banging. It will be interesting to see other people’s views on the whole business.

Best wishes, Steve.

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#2

I’ll be voting with my heart, voting to stay in, to remain, with passion.

First and foremost because my partner is German, and for the UK to leave the EU could make things more difficult for us. I don’t like politics which divide people, which reinforce imaginary lines on our Earth, which create “them” and “us”.

Instead, I’d like to see more reaching out, more emphasis on language learning, appreciating the cultural diversity of Europe and all the many good people there are in all countries. There are rouges and diamonds in every country.

I don’t care about all the dreamt up statistics, the financial arguments drawn out of hats. I don’t care about Boris’ ridiculous ranting about straight bananas, hoovers and hairdrier regulations. We’ve had some very important environmental legislation from the EU. Nor do I like Gove’s cold fish calculating and very disingenuous sounding bribes on reducing VAT: I’d believe that if actually came to pass.

We had war in Europe not so very long ago, and no one, but no one can deny the rumblings in Eastern Europe - Putin would certainly welcome the break up of the EU.

The UK leaving Europe would very likely spell the end of the UK too. The SNP would use the situation to call up another referendum on Scottish independence, would claim that an independent Scotland could rejoin the EU. Scotland, as far as I know, is relatively pro Europe, in comparison to England.

I worry about the world today - the rise of nationalism and the amnesia with regard to the lessons of history.

And lastly, given my recent experience of PIP alone, I don’t trust the UK government with yet more power over people. If you ask me - they need someone looking over their shoulder.

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#3

Hi Lapwing, I really understand where you are coming from. My partner is also German, and due to my UK citizenship Ive been able to live and work in Germany without problems for years. I think it would be sad if the UK tried to cut itself off from Europe, for all its problems the EU seems to have brought nations together in peace for decades now. Sadly I wont be able to vote in the referendum as Ive been living outside the UK too long now.

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#4

I don’t want to start an argument, as this is a very emotive subject, but I want the government of the day to make our rules for our Country, not someone else, so my heart is telling me to vote out.

If we then don’t like what our government are doing, we are able to speak with our vote, and get rid of them, whereas how it is, we don’t have that option.

Hope this doesn’t offend anyone, as this is purely my opinion.

Pam x

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#5

I don’t think there is any doubt that the EU has its faults (lots of them), but still better than the alternative and will be voting as I did in 1975. At least there is some protection for workers rights and the environment, which the present Government cannot rip up to benefit their mates.

The most amusing thing for me is in seeing Dodgy Dave trying to convince us that leaving will result in economic ruin and World War III, among other disasters. If this was truly the case, then why on earth did he call a referendum in the first place? Could it be to do with the threat from UKIP and right wing nutters in the Tory Party perhaps? If so then clearly a matter of putting his parties interest before Country, and that’s pretty unforgivable in my book.

I must say the post by lapwing is more persuasive than anything I have heard from a politician, although I am certainly not offended by opposing views.

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#6

I had to laugh when that person Gove was on a broadcast last night saying something would be sixty pounds a year cheaper. What’s he think the great unwashed can be bought for a pound a week, he probably spend that much every day on his lunch and claims it back on expenses. Non of them have any idea and I wish they could be in our shoes for six months, then the reality of cutting someone’s benefit by thirty quid a week would hit home. I find the whole lot as bad as each other. I will vote to stay in simply because the out campaign are worse at math than the remain. And if they think I can be bought with the promise of a pound a week they should not even be where they are. He (Gove) is a Tosser and I wish him illness and pestilence plus plagues upon his house. I may be broke but I can’t be bought for fifteen pence a day. He and his kind are keeping us all poor and I wish them all to be infested with fleas.

That my take on the in out campaign. Please don’t ask me about Donald Trump or the American election.

Don

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#7

Pam you cannot offend me I shall be voting the opposite to you but don’t think I don’t agree with you I started a blog once because I think the EU is crazy writing countless edicts to keep all those MEP’ S in a job. My view is fear of the unknown plus I dislike some of the out camp more than I do the remain camp.

You are far to nice to offend anyone

wink

Don XXX XXX

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#8

I think you’re absolutely right Whammel - there is far too much party politics involved in Cameron’s leadership nowadays.

It all seems to be about an overwhelming greed for power, self promotion in the Tory party. Cameron, Osborne, Gove, Duncan Smith, even the shambolic Boris is at it. There is always the danger of this - people who are not of entirely sound character gaining too much influence, too much of a platform. And this is a major reason why I want the UK to continue to be held to account by the EU. I wouldn’t trust any current party with yet more powers. In fact, I find the idea chilling.

The EU may not work in all respects - no, it doesn’t work in all respects. But that just means we need to try harder to make it work. I don’t like the idea of just giving up on international cooperation, of becoming ever more self interested as a country, of pulling up drawbridges. We desperately need peace and harmony in this world, and leaving the EU does not fit with that ideology in my book. We need to work together - I can’t see how it can work any other way.

And if we did leave the EU - it would take years to sort out the legislative mess which would result.

I should add that I do respect other people’s opposing views, as passionate as I am in mine! But I am struggling more and more to respect the most influential politicians on today’s scene.

Peace and goodwill to all.

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#9

I admit I am an old leftie and bound to say it, but I thought Jeremy Corbyn’s speech today was refreshingly free of hysteria, which made nice change.

There is a decent summary in the Guardian.

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#10

Hi Whammel, I so agree. I think the way this has become a shouting match between politicians is awful. It’s great to see Jeremy Corbyn giving a serious and measured speech without using it to slag off the other side.

Actually I am so sick of the way our parliament functions. This thing of two sides facing each other and shouting their mouths off is not the way a civilised country should be run.

I think they should move out of Westminster (which isn’t fit for purpose anymore) and sit together like grown up people to discuss what is best for the country.

We live in the 21st century with an 18th century style of government. It’s nuts.

Hope you are doing ok,

Pat xx

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#11

Thank-you for the responses. It’s good to hear non-hysterical views. Just to add fuel to the fire, I’ve taken some thoughts even further. Again, I’m not trying to persuade anyone either way, I’m just trying to get some ideas about it.

Best wishes, Steve

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#12

I’m an in person. I’m not totally for it but as other people have said the alternative is far worse. It’s like everything else good and bad. As for Cameron and co all they have done is make them selves look like a bunch of to***rs, no change their then.

Jeremy’s speech was non hysterical but I do think there is more to it than bees and beaches, methinks his heart is not entirely in it.

Its quite entertaining watching the politicians fight to see who can have the most hysterical sound bite.

Mags xx

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#13

I’m an in person. I’m not totally for it but as other people have said the alternative is far worse. It’s like everything else good and bad. As for Cameron and co all they have done is make them selves look like a bunch of to***rs, no change their then.

Jeremy’s speech was non hysterical but I do think there is more to it than bees and beaches, methinks his heart is not entirely in it.

Its quite entertaining watching the politicians fight to see who can have the most hysterical sound bite.

Mags xx

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#14

I will read it tomorrow Steve I can’t keep my eyes open.

Don

#15

I am out. We are ruled by ridiculous things and grants that are given for ludicrous reasons. I am sick of being told what i can or can not do by a bunch of people who have nothing better to do.

The EU is not fit for purpose. How come people from the EU can come into britain and get all their medical stuff free, yet if i go to spain, i might get some basics free but most of it i have to pay for? My sister in law lived in spain for years, and her and her hubby have sold up and come home because they couldnt AFFORD to get the medical care they needed. They would have sold up several years ago like a lot of their ex pat friends, but they are stuck over there as no one wants to buy their homes.

My sister in law loves it here and says now they realise just how much cheaper it is to live here, then in spain. The only thing going for it was the weather, and the life style. Probably which caused them to need medical attention in the first place lol. They are all for coming out too.

The EU is on the verge of collapse. We are propping up greece and other countries.

I belong to several forums with this same question and the majority want out, and most of these are YOUNG PEOPLE which i am surprised at.

We dont need the EU we are a great enough country on our own. We are swamped literally because we a great country and everyone wants to come and live here. Polish people are claiming our benefits, like child benefit even though their children are living in Poland still, I mean how can that be right, and i know its true as i live right near to a big factory who employ a lot and some of them lodge with a friend of mine.

Nah for me i want out, lets make this country great again. We dont need to be told by a group of people how to live. We have unions to do that.

And if the EU is so great how come France is having RIOTS with thier workers then. Someone mentioned workers are protected in the EU they are NOT.

The clashes came as at least 170,000 workers and students took to streets nationwide on Thursday in a new push for the withdrawal of the proposed labour law.

If the EU was so great how come the French Government can do this?

Nah the EU is just a job for the boys and is costing us millions to change things, which hardly work.

Sorry rant over lol… I am not going to get into a political debate, just this is my take on things, I live in farming country and even the farmers think some of the subsidies and grants are stupid.

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#16

So many well made points here, thanks all.

I’m for staying. However, I’m bothered because the sound-bite style of rhetoric from both sides has not really helped to clarify much at all. My overriding feeling is that despite all the predictions from either side of how bad it will be if we vote the other way, no-one really knows. It’s guesswork, and worse, it’s political jostling for personal gain rather than for the common good.

So if my head can’t decide, I’m left with my heart, which says ‘stay’. I’m proud to be British, but proud too to be European. The Europe which tore itself apart twice in the past century but which has endeavoured successfully to heal itself. A Europe which, for all its faults, has a strong liberal and humanitarian face to present to a troubled world. I don’t think we should divorce ourselves from that.

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#17

Very well said.

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#18

Hello everyone, I AM VOTING TO LEAVE

10 Reasons to leave why we would be better off out.

  1. Freedom to make stronger trade deals with other nations,

  2. Freedom to spend UK resources presently through EU membership in the UK to the advantage of our citizens.

  3. Freedom to control our national borders.

  4. Freedom to restore Britain`s special legal system.

  5. Freedom to deregulate the EU`s costly mass of laws.

  6. Freedom to make major savings for British consumers.

  7. Freedom to improve the British economy and generate more jobs.

  8. Freedom to regenerate Britains`s fisheries.

  9. Freedom to save the NHS from threats to undermine it by harmonising healthcare across the EU,and to reduce welfare

Payments to non-UK citizens.

  1. Freedom to restore British customs and traditions.

There are many other reasons to quote but it would take all day. My Wife is Portuguese I love her culture. but she is hoping

The UK will Leave.

So do my 4 grown up kids who all speak fluent Portuguese I do have one miracle baby son who has no say shame lol.

A Debate by all of the main speaker should be on stage face to face being asked questions for us to watch live on TV, Cameroon would refuse to face them face to face. (Coward)

Our task should be to take Britain out of the European Union, It can be done it will be done.The EU will have more countries asking for bailouts and more countries joining. We should not be part of that problem.

VOTE LEAVE…

Kielynuk

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#19

Here is something I posted on Facebook earlier

https://www.facebook.com/CartoonRalph.Underhill/photos/a.192124550971336.1073741826.192116470972144/516059788577809/?type=3&theater

Hope the link works

Don

#20

l am with you on this. l am voting out!!