MS may be due to simple jaw problem - Seek a spinal symmetry evaluation before starting drug treatment!

I have had an ‘MS’ diagnosis for 22 years and the symptoms were gradually crippling me until I started treatment for TMJ and skeletal asymmetries five months ago. Now my ‘progressive MS’ is regressing, symptoms are disappearing, I have my energy back! Follow my story here http://themsforum.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6

When I rang the Essential Health Clinic in Edinburgh about CCSVI they informed me that treatment for TMJ has been having a better impact in treating MS than CCSVI. I am very sceptical about these things especially as I have spent too much money to date on trying to improve my health. I do have pain sometimes in my jaw but always thought it was due to severe blow I had in the jaw about 25 years ago with a hockey ball!

Moyna xxx

I had treatment for CCSVI and got some moderate improvements but the jaw treatment I am receiving now has made several of my remaining symptoms disappear completely. I had L’Hermitte’s sign for 22 years, that has now gone completely. The patchy numbness I had on my torso and legs has gone. The best thing of all is the fact that my mobility is improving not progressing. Recently I have been able to take a few steps completely unaided for the first time in 10 years! :wink:

Hi, I feel that if someone`s MS goes away or improves significanlty, then perhaps they were wrongly diagnosed in the first place.

What do you reckon to that idea?

I am glad things are on the up for you.

luv Pollx

Hi Poll, Yes I totally agree but how many poor people have been given an MS diagnosis, put on what are basically recycled cancer drugs which suppress or destroy the immune system and left to deteriorate. It is a huge money-making scam. Take people with various symptoms with ‘unknown’ cause, label them MS and use dangerous drugs, some of which cause fatal brain infections and cardiovascular problems, and give them as 'treatment. It has never been proved that MS is an autoimmune disease, so how on earth do you develop drugs to treat it unless you are purely in the business of maintaining a stream of dirty money. It has been shown several years ago in the lab that the immune system in MS is clearing up damage caused by SOMETHING ELSE. It is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. The practitioner that is treating me says that he is yet to see a genuine MS patient. Every one he has seen has cranio-dental and skeletal asymmetries which, when corrected, make ‘MS’ symptoms disappear. What do you reckon to that? Jen x

Hello, I am confused. Isn’t MS to do with a persons central nervous system? What has spinal symmetry got to do with it? Genuine question as I have not spent one day as an adult in good health. I am very new to all things neurological but I am no stranger to being ill, 23 years. The last 6 years turning Neuro in nature, 3 years ago symptoms became quite alarming. I have over the years been assessed by Physios, Osteopaths and not once have they mentioned a problem with my spine, only a very slight increased curve at the base and a few exercises help when I need it. My back was very painful when I was a teen but I never had the problems I have now. When I visit the Dentist, I have never been told of issues that would indicate a problem. I don’t wish to sound stupid here, I just would of thought these things would have been picked up over all the years I have been unwell. My problems are yet to be revealed, I seek help and sanctuary from wonderful people on here because I am scared, really scared. I am assuming nothing, so please enlighten me on this subject. Sam

Hi Sam, I too have been ill for a long time, 22 years. During that time I have never been checked for spinal symmetry, even when I saw an osteopath. I have never had my brain outflow veins checked either but low and behold, my jugular veins were 90% stenosed before my CCSVI treatment. Sometimes you have to look outside the box. Asymmetries of the spine can cause neurological symptoms like numbness, pins and needles, gait and mobility problems, cognitive dysfunction. These symptoms are all put down to MS. When your atlas vertebra is skewed off centre, the jugular vein and vagus nerve may get compressed. More info here, http://www.atlantotec.com/en/fundamentals/circulatory-vegetative-nervous-systems-vagus-nerve Don’t be scared Sam, just make sure you do your own research, don’t just blindly accept what the doctor or MS nurse tells you. Question everything, take control of your own health and you’ll be fine :wink: PM me if you like, we can chat further. Take care Jen x

I reckon you are absolutely spot on Poll :slight_smile:

Karen x

I am very glad to hear that you have found something to relieve your symptoms, however, I disagree vehemently with much of the content of your posts. Not only is it inaccurate and illogical, some appears to be simple scaremongering.

The truth is that:

MS is not caused by CCSVI.

MS is not caused by any compression of veins.

MS is not caused by any skeletol misalignment (including the jaw!).

The immune system is not “doing exactly what it is supposed to do” in MS.

Your comments about DMDs and “dirty money” are built around a few, selective facts which have been grossly inflated and over generalised. The result is a statement that is pure conspiracy theory, potentially libellous and plain wrong.

Also, notwithstanding the fact that I find your suggestion that I have been the victim of a “huge money-making scam” personally offensive (I have used both Copaxone and Rebif), the hypocrisy is staggering. What reliable evidence can your “practitioner” provide to support his/her claims to have no patient with genuine MS? (I wonder what motive could possibly provoke someone to say that kind of thing?!) How much does each session cost you? How many are you going to have to have? How long will any effect last? I wonder how you heard of your “practitioner” or what qualifications in neurology he/she has? And while we’re at it, how much did your CCSVI scan cost you? How much does the EH Clinic charge for the “treatment” it provides for CCSVI?

I’m utterly shocked by the claims in this post which have no objective, intelligent, recognised and approved support at all - it needs removing - Mods?

Spine problems can absolutely cause pins and needles, numbness, mobility problems etc but they can’t cause lesions. It’s the evidence of lesions that lead to a diagnosis of MS - damage to the myelin sheath.

If there’s any money making scam going on it’s by the unethical practitioners who are convincing MS sufferers to have spine realignment etc which will never ever heal myelin damage.

Having looked at your link I’m surprised you believe asymmetry can also cause optic neuritis

I, for one, am utterly offended by the statement “he is yet to see a genuine ms patient”. I think this thread could potentially inflict a high risk of psychological harm to already vulnerable members of this community and should be looked at closely by the mods.

Hi Rizzo, Thanks for your comments about my post, let me first say that there is nothing inaccurate or illogical in anything I have said. 1. I never claimed that CCSVI causes MS. What I said was that I received some moderate improvements to my symptoms when I was treated for it. 2. Who said it was caused by vein compression? I merely stated that this ‘may’ be the result of atlas asymmetry. 3. How do you know that the symptoms I had which have now completely disappeared (and incidentally attributed to MS) were not the result of skeletal asymmetries? After 5 months of treatment with dental appliances these symptoms have gone and were obviously not caused by MS brain lesions if they resolved so quickly! How arrogant is it to state categorically that MS is not caused by skeletal and jaw misalignments? What IS it caused by then? My comments about DMDs are not grossly inflated, just do a little research to see what is going on there. http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/exclusive-ms-drug-rebranded--at-up-to-20-times-the-price-8209885.html I’m sorry you feel offended by my suggestion that the drug companies sell recycled cancer drugs as part of a money making scam, I certainly did not intend to upset people, I was simply stating the fact that recycled cancer drugs will do nothing to help MS because it IS NOT AN AUTOIMMUNE DISEASE. Where is the hypocrisy exactly? The reason my practitioner can say he has never seen a genuine case of MS is that all those he has treated have resolved symptoms which had previously been attributed to brain lesions. If indeed it is the case that lesions cause permanent damage to nerve pathways, then why do these symptoms disappear when the asymmetries are corrected? I am receiving symmetry treatment privately and the cost varies from patient to patient. For me, each appointment costs about £100. The treatment is spread over several months to 2 years. My doctor is a cranio-mandibular and skeletal symmetry practitioner specialising in cranio-facial orthopaedics and orthodontics. A very qualified man who has made a link between neurological symptoms and skeletal asymmetries. I dont see what any of this has to do with the cost of a CCSVI scan? I wasnt treated or scanned by EHC so I cant tell you how much they charge. Personally, I consider the improvements I have gained after 22 years of progression priceless. Of course, I want to tell others with an MS diagnosis especially those yet to be diagnosed to get a symmetry evaluation to rule it out before getting slapped with an MS label. Whats wrong with that? Just trying to help with the benefit of 22 years hindsight, thats all. Good luck everyone x

Sometimes we find it best to await advice from a higher power [the web team]. They have been made aware of the posts but it will be tomorrow before they can do anything.

Liz [Moderator]

Ah thank goodness you have solved the ongoing query about whether MS is an autoimmune disease or not. The experts can now stop researching that line of thought.

Lesions do heal. Some people with MS will also have back/neck/jaw problems which will be eased by manipulation. But ‘MS’ cannot be healed by realignment. Period. There will be no ‘take up your mat and walk’ miracle by this method. If there is, the problem was not MS.

Nobody knows what causes MS or how to heal it but it is real and it is caused by lesions on the CNS.

Giving false hope; trying to make vulnerable people spend money they can ill afford on pie in the sky ‘cures’ and suggesting the meds they are on are only because of money making scams only smacks of unethical ignorance. There is only one money-making scam going on here!

1 Like

There is absolutely no “may” about it. There are many factors involved in the development of MS, including genetics, vitamin D3 and the Epstein Barr virus. There is no evidence whatsoever to even suggest that skeletal misalignment is involved for one very simple reason: it isn’t.

If you are having relief from symptoms because of this treatment, then these symptoms were not caused by MS.

Your comments about DMDs are grossly inflated. Let’s take them one by one if you like.

“…how many poor people have been given an MS diagnosis, put on what are basically recycled cancer drugs which suppress or destroy the immune system and left to deteriorate.” The UK actually has a woeful record on DMD prescription versus the rest of Europe and North America. From memory, at most 15% of people with MS are on DMDs in the UK :frowning: Leaving this to one side however, please provide evidence to show that Avonex, Rebif, Betaferon, Extavia, Copaxone, Tysabri, Gilenya and all the other DMDs in the pipeline (e.g. BG-12) are drugs previously used to treat cancer. The single link you provided later on regards alemtuzumab, although I really can’t see the big deal about whether something has been previously used to treat cancer for two main reasons: many drugs are used for many conditions and alemtuzumab is incredibly effective at stopping MS. Moving on from that, please also provide evidence to show that Avonex, Rebif, Betaferon, Extavia, Copaxone, Tysabri, Gilenya and all the other DMDs in the pipeline (e.g. BG-12) are drugs that suppress or destroy the immune system. Please note that you did not state “suppress PART of the immune system”. Providing evidence of that is therefore irrelevant (never mind the fact it wouldn’t apply to all of them either!). Now we come to the “left to deteriorate” part. People who are prescribed DMDs have to see a neurologist at least once a year. If the DMD does not work and their condition deteriorates, they will be switched to another. Sadly, if nothing works, then all that they can receive is symptomatic relief. This ongoing monitoring and care is totally inconsistent with your point. If it is your experience then I recommend that you question everything and take charge of your own health - reading the NICE guidelines might be a good place to start.

“Take people with various symptoms with ‘unknown’ cause, label them MS…” Here you suggest that there is no proper diagnostic procedure for MS. I wonder if you know how many people on this forum have found it easy to get a diagnosis? Or perhaps you didn’t consider that? Are you suggesting that we none of us actually have MS? That MS doesn’t exist? Ultimately, in what way is this part of your statement accurate, logical or uninflated?

“use dangerous drugs, some of which cause fatal brain infections and cardiovascular problems, and give them as 'treatment.” Here, you take two of the known potential side effects of two drugs (one for each btw, not both for both) and suggest that the risk is far greater than it actually is. Do you know what percentage of people on Tysabri and Gilenya have suffered with these complications? Actually, what percentage of all the people on all the DMDs have developed fatal brain infections and cardiovascular problems? Where do you state that there are no such side effects for the vast majority of people? Where do you state that there are no such potential risks with the injectable DMDs? Why have you put the word “treatment” in inverted commas, suggesting that they do not even treat MS? Please provide evidence that Tysabri and Gilenya do not treat MS, i.e. reduce relapses, reduce progression and reduce disability.

“It has never been proved that MS is an autoimmune disease, so how on earth do you develop drugs to treat it…” Linking the controversy regarding whether or not MS is an autoimmune disease to whether or not the drugs work is another manipulation of the truth. It would take too long to explain how drugs for MS are developed. Suffice it to say that MS drugs are not developed to treat an autoimmune disease; they are developed to treat MS. Most of these meds seek to reduce the immune system attacks on our central nervous systems. There is no doubt that the immune system is causing this damage and there is no doubt that it is an abnormal response. What triggers this response is the controversy. People who like to claim that MS is nothing to do with the immune system are either ignorant or have their own agenda.

“It is a huge money-making scam… unless you are purely in the business of maintaining a stream of dirty money.” Not only is this anything but “not grossly inflated”, it is actually libellous. How on earth can it be a scam if the drugs work? You may well refer me to the Independent story about alemtuzumab. This is undoubtedly bad news, but in what way does it prove that alemtuzumab does not work? Are you aware of the costs of drug development? Are you aware of the success rate of new drugs? Are you aware of the millions of people who are still alive and/or healthy today because of the same companies that you accuse? Tell me please, what percentage of pharmaceutical capital investment is profit? Now tell me what the equivalent number is for other businesses? Might it surprise you to know that pharmaceutical companies are not at the top of the list? I actually looked at this earlier this year: the pharmaceutical industry came sixth (of 15), behind Personal Goods, Aerospace & Defence, Software & PC Services, Mining and Electricity. Not that any of this addresses the “dirty” part of your comment. How is this the truth?

I’m afraid my point about hypocrisy must have been too subtle. You claim that drug companies are money making scammers.

Just how much have you spent on treatment with an orthodontist who, you say, claims to have never had a patient with a true MS diagnosis and who appears, from what you have said, to be able to cure MS symptoms if you’ll just pay him £100 a session for up to two years as well as whatever “dental appliances” he prescribes?

And yet MS is not caused by skeletal misalignment. (Nothing arrogant about this statement btw. It’s the simple truth. Just like the fact that the Earth is round.)

Finally, the answer to “If indeed it is the case that lesions cause permanent damage to nerve pathways, then why do these symptoms disappear when the asymmetries are corrected?” is in the question, helped along by a lack of knowledge about neurology and neuroscience. It may become clearer if you read some of the replies I have done on here about how the brain deals with demyelination. Although I would also refer you to this rather excellent youtube video with regard to the timing (very funny, but also very true): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfRVCaA5o18

Nothing wrong with trying to help. A lot wrong with providing nothing but inaccurate and grossly misleading beliefs dressed up as facts that do not stand up to even superficial scrutiny.

Jencor, some basic anatomy is needed here. Specifically the difference between the cental nervous system and the peripheral nervous sytem.

The central nervouse system is made up of the brain, the spinal cord and the optic nerves. If you had skeletal mialignements severe enough to be causing compression of the spinal cord you would be a candidate for immediate emergency neurosurgery toprevent you from becoming either a quadriplegic or a paraplegic. I know, I did have 3 lef=vels of severe misalignment is=n my neck as a result of an accident where my spinal cord was severely impinged and I was millimetres away from being a C3 quad.

However if the Atlas joint ( the top most vertebrae benath the skull) was severely misaligned to the point of causing spinal cord compression, it would be a catastrophic injury probably causing instantaneous death due to the impact on the respiratory function.

Any other nerve impingement caused by misalignment in the spinal area will affect the peripheral nervous system. Nerves branch out from the spinal cord and exit via holes in the vertebrae called foramen. If the vertebrae are misaligned or if a disc has collapsed, these nerves can get trapped and pinched causing peripheral nerve damage, which can result in pins and needles and numbness and weakness.

The big difference though is that peripheral nerve damage follows very clear lines of damage correlating to the particular nerve affected. Central nervous system damage is more random and wide spread.

Also in the jaw you can most definitely get pain and discomfort from a condition called Temporomandibular joint (TMJ) which can mimic Trigeminal Neuralgia and can also cause dizziness and headaches. This is a result of tension in the jaw or teeth grinding and is definitely successfully treated by orthodontists.

There is no way that minor misalignments in the spinal or skeletal system can impact on the CNS and certainly it is physically impossible for these misalignments to cause lesions in your brain or to cause Optic Neuritis.

The most that some minor misalignments could cause is some peripheral nerve damage which is a far cry from the symptoms that those of us diagnosed with MS struggle with.

I am glad you are seeing some improvement at present. That is fantastic and it is quite possible that after 22 years you have developed some secondary skeletal problems caused by postural imbalances due to difficulties walking and gait abnormalities and lack of mobility. These could well respond positively to some forms of manipulative treatments as could any jaw work if you have been carrying a lot of stress in your jaw as many people do.

But to say that MS does not exist, or to quote your practitioner as saying that “he is yet to see a genuine MS patient. Every one he has seen has cranio-dental and skeletal asymmetries which, when corrected, make ‘MS’ symptoms disappear” Is just irresponsible and makes you look both ignorant and foolish.

Like wise your statements about the drug treatments are dangerously ignorant and foolish. I have been on one of those so-called “recycled cancer treatments” and it changed the pattern of my MS from monthly back-to-back relapses to my having over a year of stability. Did you know that it has now been shown that people who are on DMDs have a longer life span than people with MS who don’t take DMDs?

So glad as I said that you are seeing some improvements. That is great but your theories behind why that is happening are dangerously ignorant and frankly the practioner you are seeing is behaving in an extremely unethical manner.

Belinda

Hi Jen,

I have problems with my cervical spinal cord causing problems. First neuro has suggested that it is radiation damage from treatment I had 22 years ago. The second neuro thinks MS although I as I only have 1 lesion and negative LP he cant diagnose MS. Another doc thinks I had an attack of ADEM 4 years ago, when problems kind of started. Anyway I did have l’hermittes 6 months after the radiation treatment many years ago. This then raised its head 4 years ago. Anyway I generally think from my experience that neurology is a guessing game. The jaw thing does ring recent bells though. I wake up most nights with aching jaws and the feeling that a pen is being screwed into my ears. A few years ago when this started my GP said it was dental. My dentist cleared out all of my fillings. I had two crowns with decay under them. Anyway they were all replaced with white fillings. This still did not fix the problem. I was then fitted with an anti grinding gum sheild and this has not helped either. Most nights I have to take strong pain killers to get my through the night.

The questions I want to ask you did you have MRIs showing lesions ? Have the lesions repaired themselves after your recent treatments? Have you had a lumbar puncture? Lesions on the nervous system can be caused by different things. I bet there are people who have been given an MS diagnosis who dont actually have it. A know a man who thought he had MS for several years. It turned out he had pernicious anemia!

I am about to undergo a treatment that has been discovered for radiation myleopathy that has had some success in the USA. Although it is a drug used here for bowel cancer I have to pay £5000 to have it as it is not a recognised treatment for RM in this country. I have decided to go ahead even though only 1 out of my 3 neuros think that is RM that I have!

By the way I had the CCSVI screening and my veins were clear.

Love Moyna

there seems to be a lot of tension in the replies to this post. It is good to air views and I don’ t think Jencor should be shouted down. Her views are important to her and if she feels that this jaw treatment is helping so be it, we should all be pleased for her. Maybe the claims by the orthodontist /practioner? seem a little far fetched but I do believe that so many of these diseases are caused my more than one thing.

I am not an authority but in western medicine we treat the symptoms and try to find the cause but in eastern medicine they look at the whole body and possible imbalances. There must be a place for both approaches to help

As far as lesions go ( and I am new to all this so correct me if I am wrong) my neurologist said that scans are only a tool in diagnosis and he could take people of the street, scan them and find lesions. I have also read that some people have nasty neurological symptoms and they can’t find any lesions on an mri.

I believe that the human body is " designed" to heal itself ( under the right circumstances) otherwise the human race would be extinct by now but this regretably doesnt happen all the time so pharmaceutical companies do have enormous role to play . Ongoing research is massively important and it takes years of costly trials for important and life saving drugs to come to market.

So as long as Jencor is not pushing this treatment as a cure- all, do let her have her say.

Maxie