Knee pain

Last march i twisted my right knee, there was an immidiate red hot burning pain, and i knew it was bad.

i went to see my gp(should have gone to casualty)he gave me anti,inflmitory cream, cant take them tab form.

Went back to gp several weeks later sent me to physio, you know the drill straight leg lifts ect, this just caused it to swell and it became very hot.Sent for xray

So back to gp, by now its September and my knee is like a balloon the pain makes me waken at night yelling out in my sleep exray results show dammage to joint,so gp says will send you to another physio who will be able to give you a steroid jab,

See physio, end of november, hes not convinced jab will help and he wants a MRI scan more waiting.

I have the scan Jan 2nd and see physio 3 weeks later this shows i have torn the cartelige lots of bits floating around and have extra bits of bone growing inside it . now i need surgery to fix it, now waiting on letter for appointment.

So if i had gone to casualty in the first place would i have avoided all the other serveces that i have had, and saved the nhs a lot of money, the advice we get today is casualty is for emeganceys only, what is now classed as one?

SO did i do right or wrong which way is best for this sort of thing, what do you think?

Barbara.xx

Barbara,

Hopefully, an Arthroscopy on your knee will improve it. The surgeon uses a tiny camera inserted via ‘keyhole’ and the bits can be flushed out and small repairs done. Usually, its done in one day and you can go home as soon as the anesthetic has worn off.

l had this done about 4yrs ago. As for is it an emergency - then yes l think it was. Especially when you see the drunks etc sat in A&E

on these tele programmes.

So best of luck - hope you will be pain-free soon. Have you tried Arnica Gel rubbed into it - does help - l buy it from amazon in a large litre container.

F

Thanks for your reply i will try the arnica and await the hospital appointment i just want to be out of this bad pain. Barbara.xx

Recently my 83 year old Grandma has got a kidney stone that has not been removed. This may be causing her to have pain in her shoulder and her kneealso. If so, would taking Rhustox be helpful still or should she be taking something else. Is there something she can take to help break up the kidney stone along with bone pains?

Im sorry i dont know anything about kidney stones and the drug Rhustox im sorry i cant give u any advice B xx

It is generally the case that the higher the vitamin D status the less pain reported.

http://www.grassrootshealth.net/media/images/pain-chart-wide.pdf

Omega-3 fatty acids eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid in the management of hypercalciuric stone formers.

Effect of n-3 fatty acid supplementation on urinary risk factors for calcium oxalate stone formation.

Results show that 30-day n-3 fatty acid supplementation effectively decreases urinary oxalate excretion and the risk of calcium oxalate crystallization

Green Tea May Prevent Kidney Stones - WebMD

Intake of Vitamins B6 and C and the Risk of Kidney Stones in Women http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/10/4/840.long

http://www.grassrootshealth.net/blog/kidney-stones-not-caused-by-vitamin-d/118

Kidney Stones NOT caused by vitamin D

From your posts, anyone would think that Vitamin D is a panacea for the world’s ills!

This chart is absolutely meaningless - what kind of pain? where are the before and after data? what questionnaire was used? how reliable is it? are these independent or repeated measures data? where are the statistical tests? And note the fact that the y-axis scale runs from 4.2 and not from zero - a very bad way of disguising a marginal difference (5.2 vs 4.6 - is it even significant?!).

Are you honestly telling us that vitamin D is a painkiller? That we can chuck out our neuropathic painkillers, analgesics, opiates and muscle relaxants - all we need is to make sure we have plenty of vitamin D in our systems?! That the OP can not bother with the surgery - all that’s needed is a few vitamin D supplements?

Can we have a bit of reality please?!!

Barbara: sorry for getting off the point of your original post. I guess most of us wouldn’t normally class hurting our knee as an emergency - maybe we should! Fwiw, I probably would have done the same as you although I did learn a trick a few years ago and that was if I went to the local minor injuries unit I could get physio within two weeks, but go to my GP and it could take up to three months - to see the same people! I hope the surgery isn’t too far off, and works well :slight_smile:

Karen x

"From your posts, anyone would think that Vitamin D is a panacea for the world’s ills! "

From your posts anyone would think you didn’t want to understand how your body was set by the evolutionary process to function naturally. Every tissue in your body has Vitamin D receptors. Without sufficient vitamin D no part of your body can function as it evolved to function best.

This chart is absolutely meaningless

Only to those who do not want to learn

Your agressive response tells us more about you and your attitude than it does about anything else.

It doesn’t take very long to discover who GRASSROOTSHEALTH are an their scheme for postal 25(OH)D testing and the information they are collecting from those who are supplementing with vitamin D and regularly getting tested.

Those who want to understand how I have managed to chuck out my neuropathic painkillers, analgesics, opiates and muscle relaxants may want to follow this link

http://pain-topics.org/clinical_concepts/vitamind.php

and read the article here "More About Vitamin D & Knee Pain

If we are going to expect vitamin D to work as human DNA evolved to function best we have to start with the 25(OH)D level at which Vitamin D is most effective at resolving inflammation.

How Vitamin D Inhibits Inflammation http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/02/120223103920.htm

and understand Traditionally living populations in East Africa have a mean serum 25-hydroxyvitamin D concentration of 115 nmol/l 46ng/ml and rising with pregnancy and age.

Vitamin D3 is activated in the presence of magnesium, modern diets don’t contain sufficent magnesium and most of us have less than the current magnesium RDA in our diets.

We also know that the Omega 3 fatty acids EPA and DHA act as nutritional vitamin D receptor ligands and activate the production of the active form of Vitamin D3.example here

“Omega-3 fatty acid supplementation increases 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D and fetuin-A levels in dialysis patients”

So if you want to manage with fewer neuropathic painkillers, analgesics, opiates and muscle relaxants like I do (in fact I no longer use any pain medication or antibiotics) the key point is to raise 25(OH)D level above 50ng/ml 125nmol/l and keep it there for at least 2 years and then see how much pain medictions you are using them.

But adding 100mg magnesium with each meal and before bed and correcting omega ratio (raising 3 levels lowering omega 6 intake) will improve Vitamin D’s abilty to resolve inflammation and control the inflammatory response.

Can we have a bit of reality please?!!

I’m simply relating my personal experience of learning how to manage chronic neurophatic pain which I worked out after reading this paper

The Biochemical Origin of Pain – Proposing a new law of Pain: The origin of all Pain is Inflammation and the Inflammatory Response PART 1 of 3 – A unifying law of pain http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2766416/

If it works for me it may well work for you.

The point is that maintaining the NATURAL level of anti inflammatory reserves that human DNA evolved with can only help.

Now tell us, Ted, are you related to the E C Hutchinson who sells Vit D3 capsules from an address just outside Louth (Lincs) and who advertises on the Vitamine D 3 blog that you operate? Does the blog work for you as well?

Geoff

[quote=“DoctorGeoff”]

Now tell us, Ted, are you related to the E C Hutchinson who sells Vit D3 capsules from an address just outside Louth (Lincs) and who advertises on the Vitamine D 3 blog that you operate? Does the blog work for you as well?[/quote]

If you visted my blog and read the information their you would see the words At cost price

I’m not sure what reading age is required to understand from that I make no profit from supplying Vitamin D3 AT COST PRICE to people who are relutant to order it themselves from the USA.

I do exactly the same for the Vitamin D 25(OH)D tests from Cityassays where they offer £25 for single tests BUT £20 each if you bulk buy 10 and share with friends.

So If you want a test AT COST PRICE and are prepared to pay the actual cost of postage I’m pleased to help you.

Maybe the MSSOCIETY could offer the same service?

It may indeed be the case that you Geoff aren’t prepared to put yourself out to help others but not everyone is so mean minded and unhelpful.

In practice I put that site up some years ago when there was a bit difference between US prices and UK prices for Vitamin D3, Now if anyone contacts me for Vitamin D I post them a link to AmazonUK who usually have the a years supply of 5000iu for £8.99 or £9.99 so cheaper than anything I can offer.

Perhaps Geoff can explain how offering services at cost price can be regarded as profitting.

Much as I would like to give Vitamin D3 or 25(OH)D tests away for free I’m afraid that would be expecting too much.

Hi Barbara, Just wanted to say that I love your picture:) I still get teary eyed when I think of Steve, he was such a huge loss. You cannot learn that kind of passion for animals, he was very special :slight_smile: Sorry this is nothing to do with your knee, I hope you feel better soon. Sam x

Barbara, I am truly sorry that your thread has been hijacked and that I am about to add fuel to it :frowning: Kx

You obviously know nothing about me. If you did, then you would know that I believe that vitamin D is important and I have been taking supplements for years. In December, I discovered that my vitamin D levels had become too high and were causing what I had thought was progression of my MS. You replied on my thread on here that because of the half life of vitamin D, a couple of weeks off the supplements would have my levels back into therapeutic range. WRONG. I have now been off supplements for more than a month and my levels are still far too high. You also replied that a level of 345 was fine and would not cause side effects. WRONG. Since my levels have started to come down, my symptoms have improved. You posted graphs showing how much vitamin D supplementation would maintain what sort of level and showed links that claim that 10,000iu a day is fine. WRONG. Taking those doses got me into trouble. You posted that having higher vitamin D levels improves pain. WRONG. My pain was worse. You now show us very poor data (that graph is laughable) and tell us that having high levels will allow us to throw out our pain meds. UNBELIEVABLY WRONG!

Your cobbling together of extracts from various websites and papers leaves me in no doubt that you actually do not understand what you write about and recommend so voraciously. And not only does your constant promotion of the grass roots website smack of shilling, we now learn that you actually sell vitamin D and vitamin D blood tests! I guess that explains why you appear to only ever post about vitamin D and need little reason to do so, e.g. your reply on this thread is irrelevant - vitamin D for an injury?

Is vitamin D important? Yes, of course it is and, once I get my vitamin D down to 125-150nmol/l, I will continue to monitor it and take suitable supplements to maintain it.

Is vitamin D a panacea? No, of course it is not! Anyone with even a modicum of common sense knows that!

In December, I discovered that my vitamin D levels had become too high and were causing what I had thought was progression of my MS.

As you know full well I try my hardest to ensure everyone knows where to get 25(OH)D levels monitored at the lowest possible cost so they can see how their body is responding to oral vitamin D supplementation. Apart from offering tests at cost price and regularly explaining the need to monitor 25(OH)D albiet to ensure the intake is adequate I don’t see what else I can do

the half life of vitamin D, a couple of weeks off the supplements would have my levels back into therapeutic range

It is clear from your response to oral vitamin D 3 that your personal response is not typical of most peole. It is irresponsible of you and dangerously misguided and totally irresponsible to present your personal experience as being valid for others. You are the exception to the generally rule and you should understand that. What I have written is GENERALLY true for MOST of the people reading this forum

You also replied that a level of 345 was fine and would not cause side effects. WRONG.

The side effects you menion may be the result of a high 25(OH)D level in the context of magnesium, calcium Vitamin A or other of the Vitamin D cofactor deficiency state.I see no evidence they are the result of Vitamin D acting alone. I’m sure you think you know better than the Vitamin D experts such as

The Risk of Additional Vitamin D http://www.grassrootshealth.net/media/download/vieth_sip_vitd_cancer_symp_2009.pdf

The Grassrootshealth study showing that in their experience NO ONE reported higher pain from increasing Vitamin D status and most of those particating reported lower pain levels is important becauce it show just how exceptional your response You posted that having higher vitamin D levels improves pain. WRONG. My pain was worse. has been. Should we place more importance on your response or the 3588 people with pain who report otherwise.? What is likely to be the typical response?

I never suggested people using Vitamin D would be able to chuck out their pain meds those were your words I cut and pasted. It’s true in the past I used every pain medication and experienced the full range of adverse effects and suffered a quality of life that was IMO worse than death. It was to make life tolerable that I invested the time and energy to change that situation. I don’t belief my experience is unique and I have linked above to the sources I used to understand the role of inflammation and the inflammatory response to explain how, despite not being able to CURE the underlying problem, I’ve been able to improve my control of pain to such an extent that I no longer use pain medications at all. All I am suggesting is that maintaining a NATURAL 25(OH)D level and the NATURAL omega 3 ratio humans evolved with together with the NATURAL MAGNESIUM intake we all would have consumed (before the relatively recent changes in plant breeding and production,) may enable other readers here to reduce their reliance on pain medications. I’m sorry you find that idea so challenging.

If you read the paper’s I linked to and made an effort to understand the information in them I’m sure you would benefit from that knowledge but I doubt you’ll bother.

Here is another paper in the same vein Melatonin in Antinociception: Its Therapeutic Applications

Melatonin is another natural hormone (like Vitamin D3 which our DNA is set to produce from dawn to dusk) which that we are supposed to make from dusk to dawn. Modern electric lighting both in the house and outside, Digital displays, TV’ PC monitors insufficient difference between day time indoor lighting and night time light levels, mean we all have less than previous generations. You don’t have to suffer from low melatonin levels but can improve that situation quite cheaply.

One has to wonder what sort of reading age would be needed to take a personal statement (from rizzo), and believe that it was a generalisation.

It also has to be said that "GENERALLY true for MOST " can be read by an awful lot of people as meaning “NOT TRUE for MANY”.

Geoff

Thanks Samantha he was an awsome man such a loss for the animals of the world, i cryed buckets when he died good to hear from another animal lover Bxxxx

I’m locking this thread, because it’s kind of gone off topic and simply reading it is in danger of giving ME knee pain. Ted, please be aware of hijacking threads, it can be dreadfully antagonistic- and nobody want that on a Friday evening.

Kind regards

Stewart (admin)