jury service...........

The point I was making about msers committing a crime was that having m.s. or indeed any other disability would not excuse them from being charged and appearing in court.

We can’t have it both ways.

As someone with a disability I can’t demand my right for fairness when applying for a job or for accommodation etc and then say I don’t want to do jury service because I have m.s.

Visual and hearing impairments are not a bar to becoming a juror.

Are you suggesting that having m.s. is a bar to becoming a juror?

The thought of sitting on a hard chair for hours on end trying to concentrate on what’s going on and feeling anxious about wanting a wee fills me with horror. At Christmas I sat on a hard chair for about a couple of hours at my daughters house because I cant get off her sofa and I spent the next few days in chronic pain and stiff.

If that’s what you want to do then by all means go for it but personally I’d be right on the phone to the doctor for an exemption.

I personally think I wouldn’t be doing the person in the dock any good whatsoever.

Mags xx

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THIS! I KNOW that with my cognitive problems I’d not - to quote Terry Pratchett - know my bum from breakfast, by the time decision making time rolled around, I’d be a cabbage.

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That’s an excellent point Mags, surely the accused deserves a fair trial, and having a juror who is unable to concentrate on the evidence because of their disability deprives that person of a fair trial. And being a person who knows they would be unable to concentrate either due to discomfort, pain, fatigue, cognitive problems or whatever else affects them is likely to affect their impartial ability to weigh up evidence.

Sue

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Having equal treatment, equal opportunities, benefiting from legislation which supports us into the mainstream has other implications.

We can’t pick and choose - either we are part of mainstream society or we’re not. We can’t push on the one hand for say modifications in the work place and then opt out of our duty as citizens to do jury service.

We can’t grumble about a potential employer not taking us on because we have m.s. but are very happy when the courts won’t have us as jurors because we have m.s.

The challenge for the Courts is to be able to meet the needs of all potential jurors so that juries have representation form all branches of society.

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Dear k, you seem to be missing the point.

If some disabled people in certain new circumstances, who already have symptoms which cause pain and anxiety may suffer further, then we feel we are unsuitable for that particular type of event ie jury service.

Yes, we ARE part of the main stream population. We sometimes need certain adaptations or exemption from regular events.

We don’t want special treatment, we want understanding and to be included wherever possible. If we don’t fit a certain criteria where adaptation wouldn’t be possible, or help, then we need to forgo the event!

Do you get it now k?

Pollx

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Oh dear ive started something here!!! The point is K i would willingly have done my stint at jury service but with ms and all the many and i mean many symptoms that go with it i cant do it, There are lots of things im sure we all liked to do but now cant!! And im afraid sitting for hours on end in a courtroom is not for me and my ms.

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Poll, a straight question – Should courtrooms be adapted to meet the needs of disabled jurors?

With the greatest respect K I think that you are being obtuse in this thread.

As I have experience of the Criminal Justice system (not as the accused wink) can I assure you that:

  • Disabled people CAN sit as jurors
  • Disabled people DO sit as jurors
  • Being disabled does not prevent you from sitting as a juror and equally, simply being disabled does not give you a swerve if you get a jury summons. Requests to be excused from Jury service are considered individually and so are requests for reasonable adjustments to allow you to sit (eg induction loops for people with hearing difficulties, wheelchair access etc)

Most Crown Courts are fairly modern these days and acessibility is not an issue (although, there are certain individual court rooms which are not because of when they were built - eg I wouldn’t like to try to negotiate any part of Court 1 at the Old Bailey in a wheelchair even though it LOOKS fantastic!)

However there are certain trials that some people with certain disabilities would be unable to deal with and it would be ridiculous - and unjust to the defendant and to the victim - for that individual to be allowed to sit on that particular trial. For example, many cases rely crucially on visual evidence (CCTV etc) and so a blind juror could not participate in the evaluation of the evidence. As people have pointed out, David Blunkett sat on a jury but it wasn’t one that was dependant on CCTV footage! Similarly, someone who was illiterate would not be expected to sit as a juror on a complicated fraud trial with mountains of paperwork (and being unable to read is not necessarily due a disability)

I have known jurors to sit who have visible disabilities so there must have been many more disabled people who have sat who have non-visible ones.

However, a person with a good reason to be excused from Jury Service totally because of the effects of their disability on them would be.

It may also interest you to know that I an aware of Judges and magistrates who have disabilities, barristers with disabilities (including, for example, someone I was at college with who lost both legs above the knee when she was a teenager) and Court Staff too.

With regard to the defendant, I can promise you that disability or age and infirmity are not barriers to appearing in court and, if convicted, to being imprisoned. So much so that the Prison Service is having to spend large amounts of money adapting certain prison premises to allow for disabled inmates - including wheelchair access for prisoners.

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Sorry K I’m hijacking your question to Poll. I hope neither of you minds.

Even if a courtroom were adapted for my disability needs, and appropriate breaks were available for my inevitable toilet needs (at times rather urgently), I would still not be able to serve as a juror because of the cognitive impairment and fatigue I suffer. Just as I am in the support group for ESA because I am not capable of doing a job, I need the option for medical exemption from jury duty. This has absolutely nothing to do with adaptations of courtrooms nor does it relate to making it possible to accommodate my disability. The fact is that I am medically unable to serve as a juror and therefore appreciate the possibility that were I called for jury service, I could request exemption. And I would regret the necessity.

Sue

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Krakowian, I’m sorry but it appears that your knowledge of how MS can affect others is limited to knowing about your own condition. MS is often known as The Snowflake Disease as in the hashtag often use on social media #notwothesame. Each and every one of us is affected in different ways.

The reason that I’d never be able to do it that I get days where I can barely stay awake for a few hours at a time and even then my Cognitive Function is so severely impaired that apart from lack of concentration, I could possibly misinterpret what I hear- in turn making a wrong decision. Q.E.D.

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Boblatina - I’m a yorkshireman (adopted) - we don’t do obtuse in Yorkshire!

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The Court officials exempt you from jury service because you have cognitive problems/ can’t concentrate/ have bladder problems/ can’t sit still. You may be glad to accept that.

In the feed back after failing to get the job you wanted badly the interviewer tells you that you were unsuccessful because you have cognitive problems/ can’t concentrate/ have bladder problems/ can’t sit still. I guess you’d be very unhappy about that.

We can’t pick and choose - we’re a part of society, a society which has been pressurised to give the disabled the support needed to be part of that society with Employment Laws, Accessibility Laws etc

In this specific area the challenge is for the Court system to make adaptations so that we are all included.

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Well K All i can say is if you get a summons for jury service gd luck with it, Im sure by your comments you can deal with it no problem…

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There’s no single definition of ‘disabled’. I’d struggle as I have cognitive fatigue. I wouldn’t trust my judgement. I’d be horrified if someone relied on my opinion.

And…I’ve just pressed the ‘back to forum’ button . I am not trustworthy. Sucks to have MS, doesn’t it?

What did I say before? Obtuse!!!

People are not asking to be treated in a different way in different scenarios to benefit themselves when it suits them. In both the situations you describe, people are asking to be afforded the protection that allows them to be useful members of society by participating in society. And in both scenarios the same protection is provided for all.

In one scenario, you describe a situation where a person applies for a job that they believe that they can perform. A prospective employer has to consider what reasonable adjustments could be available before evaluating whether the applicant is the right applicant for the job- the key word being reasonable!

I always wanted to be a ballet dancer but I doubt that the Royal Ballet would have employed me if I was deluded enough to apply (before or after diagnosis! It reminds me of the Peter Cook and Dudley Moore sketch about the 1 legged man applying for the role of Tarzan (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ty68LPKRQQQ - watch it, it is a classic)

If, however, I was applying for an office based job where I fitted all the criteria but would need a desk nearer the loos because I need to go to the toilet more often I would have every right to be well hacked off if I was turned down simply for the reason that I had MS that affected my continence!

The 2nd scenario (jury service) is different. There, the state says that you must carry out a task. You don’t put your name forward. If you refuse to sit (without reasonable excuse) you can be fined or even imprisoned for contempt of court. So the Court Service do make adjustments to their buildings etc so that as many people can participate as possible but they also consider individual people’s individual needs and problems as to whether it is reasonable for an individual person to be excused from Jury Service completely (or from a particular type of case) because because of their individual disability.

All people have equal rights and should have equal opportunities. All the Equality Act legislation does is to attempt to provide a level playing field upon which we can all play the game to the best of our abilities - it doesn’t mean that we are going to win that game when we play it.

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I always thought that obtuse and curmudgeonly were 2 of the necessary character traits for being allowed to reside in Yorkshire cheeky.

I’m a Red Rose girl born and bred so I know, you know. wink

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Somehow I don’t think k is ever going to see what we are trying to tell him/her!

Perhaps we should end this thread and hope tc gets the right decision for her.

And if k ever gets called for jury service, good luck to him/her and I hope you cope.

Pollx

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pollx i think your 100% bang on K is not ever going to see my our any of our concerns re the above thread!! OH WELL never mind eh… All The best To All. Tony…