MS NOT an autoimmune disease

I’d happily read the review if someone would provide a link. Perhaps you would be kind enough to post it?

With regard to your interest in an argument becoming more persuasive as the more people try to discredit it, I wonder if you would have said the same about the paper which stated that MS was a sexually transmitted disease? This caused quite a furore about 10 years ago, with probably 99.99% of people & organisations slating it.

Incidentally, surely everyone who posts on these boards is a “self styled advisor”? Including you.

OK, I may have done Professor Corthals an injustice. However, she might like to consider why she has not appeared on the full staff list of John Jay College. In my frame of reference, a “full faculty member” would be someone with tenure. Noting that some of the members of JJC do not want their e-mail address available to anyone with an internet connection, I can quite understand that she may be one of them - but her complete absence from the staff list is sufficient to justify my conclusion that she is not currently on their faculty. If I am indeed wrong, then she is entitled to my apologies - and also to congratulations if she has attained tenured status in just a couple of years.

I really would like to read the paper in full. The moderators may not like personal e-mail addresses being posted here, but if Prof Corthals cares to post her University address, or even one for the Secretariat of her Department, I will respond with my personal address.

Geoff

This is an apology to Angelique Corthals.

Using a different search routine to my previous one, I was able to find Professor Corthals in the John Jay College Staff Directory.

If I can duplicate my search of yesterday, which did not find her, I will pass the search path direct to Prof. Corthals.

I don’t know if UK Public Libraries can access JSTOR, so will mail you with my contact details, Angelique.

Geoff

your choice, love

MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS IS NOT A DISEASE OF THE IMMUNE SYSTEM Angelique P. Corthals Clicking this link downloads a PDF file containing the full text of the paper.

For those who would like to discuss the paper with the author, she has been answering questions at this blog.

http://asknicola.blogspot.com/2011/12/huge-news-multiple-sclerosis-is.html

Dear Angelique,

I have now had the opportunity to read your paper. I should state from the outset that I have no background in biology, so I leave the review of the more densely biological sections of your paper to those better qualified. Overall, I found your hypothesis interesting, but several things undermine my confidence in it. I list some of these below, but for those who don’t want to read the whole thing, my main issues are what appears to be a very selective choice of citations, a lack of empirical support, no consideration of the heterogeneity of MS and no suggestions about how your hypothesis might be tested. I will, however, be very interested in reading the results of any follow-up research you may do on the topic and wish you the best of luck with it.

Yours sincerely,

Karen.

General (in no particular order!)

  • You make no reference to the heterogeneity of MS. Can your hypothesis explain the different types of MS (e.g. benign, RRMS, SPMS, PPMS, PRMS, Marburg’s Variant, etc)? And the different severities found within these diagnoses? And the fact that some MSers find that their disease progression naturally plateaus at some point?

  • Can your hypothesis explain the increasing incidence of paediatric MS? Children as young as two years old have been diagnosed in the UK.

  • You consistently refer to the “acute phase” – how does this relate to progressive forms of MS?

  • You refer to “trauma” as a potential trigger, but this is not defined, nor evidence provided to support its importance in the development of MS.

  • You offer no suggestions as to how your hypothesis could be tested.

  • You propose that the same process leads to atherosclerosis in men and MS in women. There must be data already available with which to explore this proposal, however you have not provided any, nor made any suggestions about how these data may be gathered if necessary.

  • Can your hypothesis account for the distribution of MS lesions (e.g. the preference for the periventricular area) and the variability of numbers and locations of lesions between MSers (e.g. those with lesions only in their spinal cord versus those with lesions only in their brain; those with numerous lesions versus those with very few lesions)?

  • You do not properly address the growing, very strong evidence of a specific link between EBV and MS. Can your hypothesis account for this?

  • Why, if lipid metabolism underlies MS, do statins and fibrates not do a better job?

Specifics (in no particular order!):

“the relatively high incidence of MS in regions where populations can obtain Vitamin D both through UV synthesis and/or diet, such as Iran or Japan (Yamasaki et al. 1996; Niino et al. 2002; Maghzi et al. 2010)." (p288)

  • Japan actually has a low incidence of MS
  • Maghzi et al suggest that the increasing rates of MS in Iran is linked to a lack of Vitamin D
  • Yamasaki et al propose two different types of MS: “Asian MS” (no link to Vitamin D), “Western MS” (link to Vitamin D): how does this fit with your hypothesis?
  • Niino et al is about Asian MS
  • Asian MS is sometimes likened to NMO instead of MS (see, e.g., Polman et al, 2011)

“For example, a strong association of alleles of the major histocompatibility complex, such as HLA DRB1*1501, with the disease has not been confirmed for all MS patients (Yamasaki et al. 1996; Schreiber et al. 2002).” (p288)

  • Yamasaki et al suggest two different forms of MS (Asian and Western). It is hardly surprising, therefore, that these would have different genetic profiles.
  • Schreiber et al suggest that not all MSers have the same genotype (which may be linked to severity). How does your hypothesis account for this?

“Atherosclerosisspecific drugs, such as statins and, more recently, PPARs agonists, are currently used to treat MS symptoms (Assmann and Gotto 2004; Rubic et al. 2004; DeAngelis and Lublin 2008; Heinecke 2009; Mandosi et al. 2010; Chrast et al. 2011; Mirabelli-Badenier et al. 2011; Rinaldi et al. 2011), highlighting the shared pathways underlying inflammatory events in the two diseases.” (p300)

  • None of these citations are studies of MS! (Instead we have stroke, diabetes, organ failure, etc.)

“This framework explains why statins and PPAR agonists (fibrates) have shown so much promise in treating MS (Stuve et al. 2003; Sena et al. 2007; Xu et al. 2007; Drew et al. 2008; Goldman and Cohen 2008; Malchiodi-Albedi et al. 2008).” (p312)

  • None of these papers are studies. Where are the citations that demonstrate that statins and fibrates help MS?
  • Where is the exploration of the studies that have reported no effect or even a negative effect of statins on MSers (e.g. Birnbaum et al, 2008; Togha et al, 2010; Sorensen et al, 2011)?

“Statins and PPAR agonists taken separately can successfully treat specific symptoms (Brown and Plutzky 2007).” (p300)
“the current approach of treating the disease as a collection of symptoms to be relieved (Brown and Plutzky 2007).” (p301)

  • How does Brown & Plutsky relate to MS?
  • Disease modifying treatments for MS focus on reducing relapse rates and progression. They are not symptomatic treatments. Which disease are you referring to here?

“MS patients have severe vascular abnormalities that reduce brain blood flow.” (p306)

  • Evidence? The only citation given in that paragraph (Duan et al, 2008) has nothing to do with MS.

“Dysregulation of PPAR functions would result in less serine, and more homocysteine, both phenomena observed in MS patients” (p310)

  • Evidence? No citation provided.

“Muscle atrophy, weakness, and spasticity, all major pathophysiological consequences of MS… MS patients improve their motor ability through resistance-training exercises” (p309)

  • Muscle atrophy is not generally considered to be a symptom of MS. When it does occur in MS, it is usually caused by lack of use (in which case, it is unsurprising that exercise improves mobility).

“This new framework explains the origins of all the symptoms of MS studied here, from restenosis, neurological disorders, and muscle spasticity to weight loss at the onset of the disease and shift of lipid metabolism throughout the course of the disease and during acute relapses.” (p312)

  • Where is the evidence that restenosis is a symptom of MS?
  • Where is the evidence that weight loss occurs at the onset of MS? (Incidentally, this is the first mention of weight loss in your paper.)
  • You have covered a tiny proportion of MS symptoms in your paper. What about optic neuritis, incontinence, paresthesia, tinnitus, neuralgia, ataxia, tremor, etc?

Hi Jacquie - Montyclift doesn’t actually know anything about this. He cut and pasted it from a newsletter called ‘Stu’s MS News and Views’ which is sent out to subscribers each Thursday.

He’s got a bit of history for cutting and pasting and forgetting to tell us where he copied the info from. I could be kind and put this down to MS.

He doesn’t know any more about MS than I do.

I agree - I think it is a disease of the immune system and also quite possibly many other linked triggers. No one knows for sure and there’s a lot of research going on.

best wishes

Katrine

Dear Angelique,

There is no way l can say l understand much of what you and Karen are discussing. But what l do understand is that you have been doing so much research into ‘OUR’ problem. So on my behalf - and no doubt millions of others l want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. l am sorry if some of the replies have been rather harsh and rude - but you have to realise that the lives of many folk with MS are pretty gloomy. They become depressed and have a very low self-esteem. Well, its now 30yrs since l was first diagnosed - and l am still full of hope that a ‘cure’ will be round the corner.

So its thumbs up - and l wish l could give you a pat on the back!!

Best Wishes to you.

Frances x

Montyclift.

Dear Jon,

Well look what you have started - l have always enjoyed your interesting posts on the old forum - and you usually get a bit of stick from folk.

But this is what we need - you have obviously continued with your ‘homework’.

Anyway, how are you - hows life been treating you?

l send you my best wishes.

Frances.

For the purpose of anyone else following the exchange, Dr Corthals has addressed some of my points, but unfortunately many of the most important questions have been avoided. As she has now said that she does not want to contribute to this thread any more, I will not go into it here. If she does want to explore them in more detail (and happens to be reading this), then I will be happy to continue the discussion in private.

Frances: I really hope you are not including me in that comment. My life is not gloomy, I am not depressed and I do not suffer from low self esteem. Moreover, my comments are perfectly normal in the academic circle; they are certainly not rude.

Do you mind not generalising so broadly about people with MS, Francis? I have major concerns with this Angelique’s research as well and continue to consider the auto-immune theory the most viable one in the whole MS question but disagreeing with someone else’s view does NOT make me “gloomy” and nor am I depressed nor do I have low self esteem!

I actually find it very insulting that you imply that those who disagree with someone are depressed. I would argue that those who have the gumption and energy to do the research and think things through as clearly as Karen did in her reply are far from gloomy, depressed or suffering from low self-esteem.

Belinda

I am dying to know what the background behind this post is!

Unfortunately, I have a funny feeling that you might be awaiting a reply to your excellently posed question for a rather long time. The cynic in me guesses that the media coverage garnered when Dr Corthals’ “hypothesis” was heavily promoted has met its objective, so that the gaping holes in its logic and argument need never be addressed.

Most of the points I raised certainly weren’t.

I hope you keep trying

Good luck!