Its a subject that I can (for obvious reasons) get quite passionate about and (sadly) certainly had my (son’s) fair share of dramas about. I just think separate non-gendered cublicles (so complete private space) would make the most sense for everyone.
I understand parents’ concerns but I AM a parent too… I think most worry because they imagine a set-up similar to what is in place now, as in semi- open cubles (with open space above and below) and rows of urinals to one side!
But if ALL toilets were just closed-off cubicles or small rooms it would mean complete privacy for those inside them. Plus easier to set up in the first place, I imagine - no more of this separate rooms with multiple cubicles and all the rest of it!
For those of us who are disabled, a loo that us unlocked by a RADAR key is the multiuse answer.
The trouble is that anyone can buy a RADAR key over the Internet.
We recently stopped at a motorway services on the M6 (Hilton Park) when heading south, and found that the toilets were “over the bridge” - and we do not do stairs without a stairlift. There was one disabled loo - I don’t know if I would call the signs “poor” or “discreet” - on the southbound side, but luckily I had taken our RADAR key with me when leaving the car, so no problem.
Two problems with the RADAR key. The first is, as you’ve said Geoff, anyone can get one. But the second is that they are flipping massive. And most disabled loos aren’t kept locked these days. So my RADAR key sits in a drawer. Only to be roundly cursed whenever I need it most.
As long as we stay away from the controversial topic of which way to hang the paper. Although I’m sure everyone on here is sensible enough to hang it the right way!
This entire argument is bogus. The notion that it is based upon an aspect of safety is completely fallacious. As if someone intent on some form of sexual assault will be unmotivated by what silhouette of a gender is portrayed on a door?
You want gender exclusive corridors and dark alley ways too? You would refuse to shop at a clothes store unless it had gender designated dressing rooms?
If there is any basis to this unfounded concern, it would perhaps harken back to a primordial instinct to feel vulnerable when taking a dump (anyone who owns a dog and has shared eye contact during the squat knows what i mean). We don’t live in caves anymore people!
When there is a degree of nudity, such as in gym / pool dressing rooms, i can appreciate an amount of squeamishness, but even then… what really is the concern? A flash of thigh or side boob isn’t going to provoke anyone to become a molester or rapist.
And then you have to consider that women, fully clothed are still verbally abused with sexual connotations for just going down the street. Plus, who knew… but a percentage of the population are actually physically attracted to the same sex; ie. those specifically required to urinate next to each other!
So this leads me to the question, what is the fuss all about? It is a wonder that some are able to consider the toilet at all, let alone who might be pooping in the cubicle next door, with their head so far up their own arse!
I think most concern is because people imagine that the the symbol is just taken down from the door. In my experience that isn’t the case. In school, they knocked the boys’ and girls’ into one large room, built proper cubicles rather than just partitions and took the doors to the corridor off, meaning that anyone walking by could see in to the handwashing area. Results in major reduction in bullying and general uptonogoodness, as well as making life a lot less stressful for intersex and transgender/gender neutral pupils. In the new block they are proper purpose built individual toilets with sinks in straight off the corridor, accessible to everyone. No urinals and I’ve never seen a urinal in any gender neutral toilet abroad. Perhaps European men have better aim!
New toilets being built in my local City to include a changing places toilet. Only problem is that they’re going to be on a first floor near the library. Have to negotiate a lift to get there.
You can buy small headed RADAR keys. Large headed ones are for people who have difficulty turning small keys.
The idea that anyone with bad intentions pays attention to what sign is on the door is ludicrous to me.
I’m not saying this thread but certainly in the mainstream media, the whole gendered toilet argument has a lot more to do with people’s bigotry about transgender than it does about any fears for safety!
Well, I have to say, when I’m bursting for the loo & the ladies are waiting in a line (as seems to be the norm) I will happily use the gents, cos they don’t mess with their makeup, stand & giggle in the aisles or bat an eyelid when a woman enters their toilet. Granted they may laugh a little, but they carry on regardless. I can see the point that concern is raised about children, of course I would be about my grandchildren, but I am also aware that even them using type cast toilets could also have people that mean harm, men or women. Personally, I share my bathroom with my friends, family, visitors etc (some of which I don’t know!!) & don’t feel intimidated, when you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go, there are still some hospitals that practice mixed wards, surely there is more argument to be concerned about them, men & women sleeping in the same room? heaven forbid!
A restaurant I went to (in Swansea so not, exactly, the epitome of cutting edge, radical thinking - sorry to any Jacks reading!) had gender neutral toilet a few years ago (2011/12?) Hardly dangerous or controversial - it was simply a larger communal space with sinks and mirrors with a row of toilet stalls (with full height doors) to one side. No urinals. No hassle. No queues. Nothing to get worked up about actually.
The reality of this gender neutral toilet seemed far safer to me than people seem worried about. More people were using the single space so less chance of being assaulted and the design made it impossible for a passing voyeur to grab a sneaky-peek under the toilet door ( and yes it does happen!) In comparison the changing rooms at your local swimming pool are much more hazardous and they are mostly unisex these days.
I suspect the only reason this topic is even ‘debated’ is due to the incredulity most people have, towards those in positions of authority (aka American politicians), who claim it to be a ‘hot button issue’.
Usually these god fearing, elderly, very rich, white men are desperate only to retain some form of relevance and will harp on about any topic that suggests they might remain in the spot light.
i also suspect many of them predicted the collapse of modern civilisation the moment females were granted access to their preferred golf courses / tennis clubs!
it is strange, but you can go to clubs, pubs, bars, restaurants and petrol stations and each will have a gender designated room, an entire room, with all the required plumbing… where is the mixing of the sexes in that? there is none and yet… the sign on the door = a line down the hallway. why?
makes no sense.
and as for going into the gents where there are urinals / piss pans / a porcelain wall… there is an ancient law, older than dirt itself:
the one thing worse than having someone stare at your todger, is someone thinking you were staring at there’s!
this rule is universally applicable and all genders, male, female and those in between should be seen to adhere to it.
I would like to propose a new law for all toilets: Radio 4 must be played at a sufficient volume to drown out any embarrassing noises, except during Woman’s Hour, that awful food quiz thing, Quote Unquote and any rubbish 6.30 comedies. At those times, it will be replaced with Absolute 80s. During The Archers there is to be a ban on the use of hand driers and no flushing when Brian is speaking lest we miss a pithy quip.
I would be concerned if my 11 year old daughter was in a mixed school which had gender-neutral toilets - I think she would be very uncomfortable were she to find the toilet full of year 10/11 boys hanging about.
I would be concerned were my daughter to go alone to a gender-neutral toilet in the middle of town - my concern would be that there could be men hanging about there. And of course they would be there ‘legally’ because the toilet is gender-neutral.
Most importantly my daughter says she herself would be unhappy in a gender-neutral toilet.
I do understand, we had the same concerns and thought it would never work, but it does. The thing is that they simply don’t hang about because members of staff can see in as they pass so they just get moved on. Hanging about in toilets stops altogether. I’d be much more concerned about the girl on girl bullying that happens in closed single sex communal toilets.
Yeah my kids’ school had gender neutral toilets and it did stop all the hanging about and any bullying, because as Teal said, staff -of either gender- could see/go in and move kids on. It would probably be not so easy for staff going into to check on fixed gendered toilets!
