Bad Language

In my humble opinion we are all individuals and as such there are no rights or wrongs just different perceptions. One person could consider a comment as rude and uncaring where another would think they are just saying it as it is or as they see it.

All I would say is thank goodness we are not all the same. Just a thought, we know our own difficulties but can we say the same for all illnesses, conditions etc and no doubt many of us have unknowingly upset someone dealing with a chronic illness because we do not understand exactly what it means to them. Isn’t education and tolerance the way forward?

Well, zetland, I hate to disappoint you, but denial is vrey widely accepted as a coping strategy.

It has been that way since 1969, and was first suggested by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross.
Her model of coping with bad news (like serious illness, or death) runs:

Denial > Anger > Bargaining > Depression > Acceptance

Given that you recently posted that you were “escorted” from a hospital for abusive behaviour, I guess that you are somewhere between the first two stages.

oh, and @ darren 28
"I can’t see how i will “come to terms” or be ok with something that has taken so much from me, and will take so much more.

But that doesn’t mean i won’t go down swinging, without giving ms an inch."

If you cannot see the contradiction in those two statements, then I suggest you look up the Kubler-Ross theory as well.

Geoff

Hello,

I see no contradiction, just because i will never come to terms with ms or be ok with it does not mean i can’t fight it.

Darren

Well said DoctorGeoff!! I couldn’t have put it better…and I really mean that, I couldn’t :smiley:

yet more psycho-babble Doctor Geoff…

I challenge you to define these terms you quote -

denial - (and do you believe we can cope with something we are in denial about?)

anger -

bargaining -

acceptance -

My own experience is that I was never in denial, I knew it was m.s.

Don’t know what ‘bargaining’ is.

Experienced depression post dx.

Don’t know what ‘acceptance’ is.

So why is it acceptable to talk about m.s. in vague vacuous terms. Why do we see termiology like ‘dealing with m.s.’ ‘coming to terms’ ‘acceptance’ ‘sense of humour’ ’ I’ve got m.s. but m.s. hasn’t got me’ ‘fighting m.s.’

My theory is that these terms have come from people who don’t have m.s. - these terms are what the able-bodied are happy with. People are happy to perceive us coping well, having a wonderful sense of humour, NOT being unhappy or depressed.

It is unsettling for the able bodied be they relatives or friends to cope with the notion that we may be depressed or that we are unhappy or that we find it difficult to cope with the physical/mental vagaries of m.s.

This is borne out by many of us who when asked how we are, lie and tell people we’re fine and dandy. We do this because we know that society’s expectaton is that we are ‘dealing’ with things, have ‘come to terms with things’ are 'accepting etc.

Let’s ditch the babble!

We should all be able to express ourselves in our own way with whatever words we choose. ‘Coming to terms with it’ just means accepting that we all have this horrible condition and living our lives as best as we can. There’s no point getting angry, it doesn’t make anything better, just alienates people trying to help.

Zetland!! Why are you so angry? Try some meditation or relaxation techniques. There’s nothing wrong with discussing this subject but you seem so angry x

I fnd that saying “I have MS but MS doesn’t have me” absolutely abhorrent, I live my life as best I can and I HAVE to take the MS into account when I want to do things. I am one of the very lucky few who do not suffer from the severe lassitude fatigue so I can do quite a bit more than the average MS’er can. I can only say one thing to that saying F*** off. MS has me and there is f*** all I can do about it! Just live and cope with it as best I can is all I can do.

One irate Chubbbster! (Andy)

Hi

Just to add my tuppence worth of thought to the discussion. It seems like when some people see a phrase like ‘coming to terms’ with MS, they think it means not minding they have MS, or even being happy about it. I don’t think that’s what it means. I’d say I’e come to terms with it. Do I mind? Of course not! I can get angry & frustrated about it. and wish I didn’t have it. But I know I have got it. I know there’s things I can’t do, but I know there’s things I can still do. I can always choose how I spend my time, even if my choices are much more restricted than they used to be. I can decide how I react to any situation. For me, that’s what I mean when I say I’ve come to terms with it. I’ve adapted my life to fit with the limitations on my body.

In terms of some of hte other definitions, I don’t think denial literally means refusing to believe you have MS. I had a long period of denial, even though I knew full well I had MS. For me, that denial meant trying to ignore what was going on. Suppressing any negative feelings. Not asking for help, or reading anything about MS because I didn’t want to have to emotionally & psychologically confront what was happening to me & what might happen to me. And I can still have times of denial whenever a symptom gets worse, or a new one comes long. I try to pretend nothing has changed, or just suppress my fear & blindly hope it’ll just go away. And so that is why I agree denial is a coping strategy - it’s the way my emotions cope, because I fear that if I faced up to the possibility of a new loss of freedom, I may not be able to cope. So I deny it by not thinking about it.

When I first came across the Kubler-Ross model of those stages of grief, it was a revelation, as I recognised that I went through those stages as I grieved the loss of my old healthy body. It isn’t mere ‘psycho babble’, as it mirrored my experience. (The bargaining bit I think means asking questions like ‘why me?’, wishing I’d done things differently, or saying to God I’ll be a good person if only you take this away.)

(Oh, and Darren28, I think the contradiction that Geoff says you make when you say you ‘won’t go down swinging, without giving ms an inch’ is that if you’ve ‘gone down’, then clearly MS has taken quite a few inches :slight_smile: )

Hope some of that helps explain things.

Dan

Hello,

Yes ms has taken a boat load of inches, none of which i gave! So no contradiction.

Darren

The apparent contradiction is that you say you won’t give an inch, whilst admitting in the same sentance that MS has already taken a boat load. Do you mean it’s no contradiction as those inches have been taken from you, not given by you (if that makes sense)?

I just want to make sure I understand what you mean :slight_smile:

Dan

I have lost a lot since d/x, my career and a lot of my independence but I deal with my MS in my own little way. I know my way is not everyone else’s way but it works for me and mine. Anything that makes me feel happer is ok with me and my family and friends. Happy me means happy life. MS or no MS.

Shazzie xx

[quote=“darren28”]

Hello,

Yes ms has taken a boat load of inches, none of which i gave! So no contradiction.

Darren

totally understand what you are saying Darren - and there is no contradiction.

Interesting thoughts and overall I agree a lot with Dan’s views on the subject - these phrases are not vacuous idioms, I use them myself and believe that for many people they help.

Before I wade into the argument, one fact I hope we can agree on: MS is progressive degenerative disease of the central nervous system for which there is currently no known cure.

Coming to terms with MS

There are two situations to consider:(1) the initial diagnosis of MS and (2) the ongoing progression of the disease.

(1) Regardless of the type of MS that you are diagnosed, you have just been told that you have an incurable, lifelong condition with a high probability that it will (if it hasn’t already), affect your standard of living, your quality of life and all that comes with it. In this scenario, ‘coming to terms with MS’ refers to how that individual is processing the news. It’s about answering some very big questions over what it means for them personally, for their family and friends and employment, for their future. It’s about deciding how they’re going to deal with it, how well they accept it and what they’re going to do.

And just because you accept that you have MS doesn’t mean you can’t be in denial over certain aspects - Dan’s example of the negative emotions is a good one - because the mind is exceptionally good at dealing with dualities and contradicions. I accepted very quickly that I had MS and the possible implications, but I was in denial over certain aspects. After a 3 month bender I got the help that I needed, adjusted my thinking, and adapted my lifestyle to address those things I was denying. I finally came to terms with the fact I had a progresses degenerative disease and was able to move on with my life, which leads to point (2), the ongoing progression of MS.

(2) As MS progresses you continually have to adjust, adapt and accept what you can no longer do. Therefore you continually have to accept and deal with an ever-changing and difficult situation i.e. you are coming to terms with it on an ongoing basis. This is not always an easy process to go through and I know how difficult and challenging it can be, but we all do it. Some of us manage it a hell of a lot better than others, but that’s where individuality comes in.

So no, ‘coming to terms with MS’ is not a vacuous statement. It is a way of telling others that you are dealing with a difficult situation.

I have MS, it doesn’t have me

I proudly use a variant of this - I have MS, my MS doesn’t have me - and have done since I was diagnosed in 2001. It’s a powerful phrase that is not unique to MS and I’ve heard it used by various people with various conditions, including those worse than MS.

Using “I have” is a powerful way to start any sentence because it immediately gives the sayer ownership, possession and a sense of control over whatever follows. In this case it’s MS, the condition, so for me it tells my mind that I have ownership, possession and control over my MS. It’s mine to do with as I see fit and I qualify that with the second part “my MS doesn’t have me”.

I use “my MS” because that further enforces the belief in my mind that I have a ownership and control over my MS and makes it more personal. When I say “it doesn’t have me” I truly believe this even though it’s not always true. Yes my MS affects me physically - when I was diagnosed I was a triathlete and now I struggle up the stairs - but not mentally or emotionally and (hopefully) it never will. I did not choose to have MS, but I can choose how to deal with it so I continually adjust, adapt and accept what I can and cannot do. I could choose to do nothing, but that’s not a choice that appeals to me.

And this is another reason why “I have MS, my MS doesn’t have me” is a useful phrase; it sums up my attitude clearly and concisely. It tells people that I am not going to give in to MS, that I have ownership and control over it, and that I’ve taken responsibility for how I deal with it. It becomes a powerful verbal totem that gives me focus, belief and strength.

So no, “I have MS, my MS does not have me” is not vacuous statement. It is a powerful way of telling others that you are not going to be held hostage by the condition but have chosen to make the most of life.

The language that we use tells the world who we are and the words we use are exceptionally powerful; they convey emotions and feelings, ideas and opinions. If someone finds comfort or solace or strength in using one of these phrase or idioms, then who are we to criticise? We all have our own ways of coping with MS on a daily basis, and what’s right for me may not be right for you.

The views and opinions that I express are based on personal experience, my own beliefs and my own values, but that doesn’t make me right. I’m happy to be challenged and will happily debate and discuss ideas, but back up your comments with a reasoned argument that makes sense instead of trollish outbursts. I’ll happily change my mind if the evidence is there and the argument persuasive, and the more I understand where someone is coming from then the more likely I am to review my own opinions.

Garry

Wow Garry!! You are inspirational :smiley:

thanks Alison - not sure what ‘strategically deployed denial’ is?

thanks garry - in straightforward terms you see m.s. as meaning you may have to make on-going adjustments. And you are not going to give in to the m.s.

thanks Carole - yes it’s strange how we are seen as ‘strong’ or as being ‘fighters’ when we have m.s. wheras pre-m.s. no one used those terms.

As we are all different - and everyones MS is unique to them - then l agree with Garry -and addressing it as ‘MY MS’ is the most appropiate way.

But telling people what they should be saying and thinking is not appropiate.

Whether you are ‘fighting’ ‘coping’ in denial - and all the rest - life goes on. The sun is shining - and l have been out on my Tramper - charging up tracks and through a fields of stubble with my dogs - and a dear friend riding my horse trying to keep up with me. Dogs are now hosed down and dried off - friend is doing the same to the Toby horse.

Met lots of nice friendly folk down the lanes - car drivers waving at us - l can’t walk now - but it does not stop me from getting out and doing what l enjoy. ldeally, l would love to have been riding - the scooter is the next best thing.

l never mention MY MS to anyone - and if l am asked how l am - l always smile and say l am fine and ask about them. This is not denial - this is my life. Going over all the physical problems is not going to make me feel better - it will just remind me of what l have - and probably bore the person asking.

l remember Ellie saying that she has a strategy for pain - where she grins and smiles and it helps - and it does. Someone said that when they see me l always have a smile on my face and it makes them feel better.

l also swear a lot - to myself - when l am struggling to get about or falling down. So l think l also have Tourettes Syndrome.

You make me smile spacejacket. Have you been doing your “wild woman” thing on on your tramper again :wink:

Hi Val, I was just worried that things could get nasty and Zetland may be attacked. I was hoping to avoid skirmishes. having said that, I do think this is an interesting thread…just as long as no-one gets hurt, is all.

pollx