This article suggests identification is going to be a complicated business and not just because of the awful fire damage.
“Irregular tenancies’ complicating effort to identify victims while some survivors fear being detained over immigration status”
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OK, if it really is time for politics, why bring T May into this at all - she was not party leader at the time the tower was being refurbished. Nor was JC for that matter).
Kensington and Chelsea Council have enough reserves of cash to have insisted on the better class of cladding (and/or installing a good sprinkler system).
They are also almost one quarter Labour (37 Conservatives, 12 Labour, 1 Lib-Dem), so maybe a better approach would be to go through the records of |Council meetings and publicise the names of all who went along with the cost-cutting (not just the Tories).
Then do an FOI search on the management company records (if not available to the public) and see how many Labour councillors are on that board.
And, see which way they voted.
Then, and only then, can you really be brutal about a “Tory Council” (and be brutal if they really deserve it).
Geoff
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There were 120 flats in Grenfell Tower; there are 98 around the corner in Maida Vale.
http://www.tooleyfoster.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Clarendon-Court.pdf
Answer compulsory buy it for the £270,000,000 the Council has.
I’m sure the tenants will be pleased to be in the same area and I’m sure Clarendon Court has the highest specification.
George
A back of the envelope calculation on actual numbers of saved or dead:
Well, new figures today:
“It has also been confirmed that 126 hotel places have been given to families while 78 were due to be homed in properties locally or in a neighbouring borough by Monday night.”
I take “126 places” to mean beds plus 78 plus those in hospital, about 30 remain - I make that about 234 saved out of 504.
So, a total of 270 dead.
Now contrast this, with the claim that: “nobody above the 14th floor was saved by the fire brigade” -
- that figure would indicate 240 dead.
The range of 240-270 dead based upon the conservative figure of 504 in the tower at the time.
If true - horrific and astonishing.
Fay
References:
An interesting follow up story - at a small fire in Haringey, following the inferon at Grenfell Tower
“Five people had to be rescued down ladders while around 200 other people left the building before London Fire Brigade arrived.”
So they managed to save themselves and avoided the “stay put” advice!
Read more: Hornsey Road, Holloway fire sees hundreds flee flats | Metro News
Hi again,
im fed up of them talking about sprinklers, yes of cause they could save lives but I personally don’t know of anybody who has a sprinkler system in their own home.
Just in case you didn’t know some councils installed smoke detectors years ago, these are wired into the leccy but they still need replacement batteries. We had a fire last year in my block but it was too far away for us to hear any smoke detectors “going off”
i think multiple occupancy buildings should have fire alarms that can be heard throughout the building, if you heard a fire alarm you’d have more time to “get out” and wouldn’t wait until you could see smoke.
Theres a lot more to come! But I’m still putting everything in order. But it’s all a bit rambling right now.
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Been to visit my sister today, who is recuperating from a spinal operation. She lives on the 2nd floor of a 12 storey block. There are no sprinklers and there is a notice by the lift telling people to stay in their flats should there be a fire! Not on your nelly!!
I’m a full time wheelchair user and would never live above ground floor!
Pollsx
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UPDATE:
Sixty-eight flats in £2bn luxury block to be given to families whose lives were devastated in Grenfell Inferno.
There were 120 flats in Grenfelll Tower, so what about the other 52? The death toll must be high.
The Standard says:
“Residents evacuated from Grenfell Tower are set to move into a £2 billion luxury complex in the heart of Kensington, the Standard can reveal.”
Fay
Oh haven’t this government done some u turns, they are so worried about Corbin their policies have seemingly moved to the left. If it ends up with people being treated like human beings then I can only be pleased.
Wendy x
68 AFFORDABLE flats, they were built as social housing! I was told that the council had bought 68 luxury flats and given them to people who’d escaped the fire at Grenfell tower.
it took me 5 minutes research on the net to find newspaper articles describing these flats. Tomorrow the I’m no doubt about to “get into it” with person who only told me a small part of the story.
and yeah what about the other 52? Not to mention those who live near Grenfell tower who are currently dispossessed.
these flats are part of a regeneration project on Warwick Street been ongoing since 2009. They are the same as Grenfall towers, they are a mix of social housing and also privately owned. 68 have been bought immediately by the government in a deal which cost 10million. Some of the people in grenfall will be offered these flats.
Everyone is assuming that all the survivors want to stay in Kensington but we dont know that. I am sure some will have already left to stay with family if it was me i would want to get out of there to be honest.
Kensington council have been regenerating the area since before 2008 to a tune of billions.
The flats are a stones throw from Grenfall Towers.
Grenfall towers was also a mix of social housing AND LUXURY FLATS which were privately owned.
This flat was leased beginning of June. (I hope the tenants got out if they were in there).
No one should be laying blaming on anyones door at the moment until the full truth comes out then we will know officially why if this cladding was deemed flammable and POISONOUS as it was infilled with a material which let out cyanide gas, it was EVER allowed to be used and who passed it for INSPECTION. If it was ILLEGAL then why didnt the inspectors fail it. Kensington Management committee say the block was INSPECTED 16 times whilst the building was going on.
The regeneration project included:
- New gas heating system throughout
- New ventilation system and fire alarm. The ventilation system would basically shut off each floor if there was a fire on that floor and dampers would be put into play to draw the smoke out of the stairwell. New fire alarms were fitted all flats were fitted with fire alarms and smoke protectors.
- As the building was made of the old concrete style tenants had complained it cost more to keep the flats warm as concrete outer can make for cold winters. So all the block was cladded to give insulation.
- All new windows were installed.
SO what went wrong? How did a simple house fire which the fire brigade said they attended too and it was out when they left…turn into the towering inferno? On the first alarm several tenants had already left the building. 5 of which were reported as missing presumed dead who thank god turned up safe a few days ago, they had left on first alarm.
Why did the stair wells fill with smoke.
How come the fire which was put out, suddenly triggered off the cladding to be smouldering?
The fire services said there was a gas explosion when they were there on the second wave, and witnesses reported seeing blue flames (gas). It has been reported that the gas pipes for the heating system were located through the stairwell and had not been lagged yet.
How or why was the specification for the cladding changed, the management committee said they changed the contractor. Rydon had chosen a contractor to do the work. Is this the new one or the old one? Why was this rainscreen cladding systems chosen if it contained CYANIDE was it passed by the architects? The tenants would have died through cyanide poisoning from the smoke before they could get out. 12 patient taken to hospital had cyanide poisoning.
There are so many things that need answering.
How come the fire services put out the fire which was a small fire, and left to find that suddenly the outside was being compromised did something get ignited gas perhaps? the fire went up between 6 and 15 minutes after it was seen.
No I am not laying blame at anyones door until the official investigation has found out the truth.
I am just glad that so many did get out thank god.
Out of sorrow at least now more flats will be checked and hopefully this will never happen again, but the question is why is cladding being used ALL OVER THE WORLD and fires are still happening.
Its mad totally mad. In this country it is ILLEGAL to use non combustible cladding over 18 metres high, so what the hell went wrong.
Inspections should have been carried out to make sure the work was done properly.
As to people blaming the conservatives AGAIN, please stop.
Emma Croad who is now the labour MP for Kensington ward was on the exact committee management in 2014 who PASSED THIS SPECIFICATION in the first place. So please let us get facts straight. Is it her fault of course not. The management committee have no idea about cladding they can only go by contractors who advise.
So lets stop laying blame. Kensington has had billions of regeneration money thrown at it, and that is why the government now can buy OFF THE SHELF 68 brand new refurbished flats…
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Thank you Crazy Chick for pointing all of this out if only the media would do so too, all they want to do is demonise council tenants and poor people.
im printing out your post and sending it to someone who has fallen for all the media myths and lies.
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Crazy Chick I applaud you, sincerely. The media have along history of propaganda & bending the truth to sell their products to anyone that will look or listen. We do not know the facts or events that have led to this horror. Who did what, said what is not a way to support these poor victims. Their bravery was amplified yesterday when they asked for the protest marches not to go ahead & use their plight as an excuse. Families are in mourning, kiddies, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, mothers & fathers are dead, their humility & strength should be respected & revered, the truth will come out, eventually, but for now we should support all those affected, if only in thought & with love. xx
Its trial by media now all the time. The trouble is people react straight away to news they never wait to see what happened.
These things take time.
There was a DAY OF RAGE rally organised saying the government was to blame etc etc, blah blah, poverty and all that and they needed to keep the Grenfall Tower victims in Kensington. Has anyone actually bothered to ask the victims and survivors what they actually want to do?
They must be TRAUMATISED some of them who got out late and were injured badly, lost family, they are not going to be marching demanding etc, they just want to quietly grieve.
Before one week was out, the PM had visited the rescue services, went to the hospital, then visited a group of people from the flats and volunteer workers, and then issued 5million to be used to pay for clothing and food for them, made sure all of them were safe. Within less then ONE WEEK the government had bought and secured brand new homes for the survivors in the same area which some had asked to do. The building had only stopped smouldering. OH AND IN BETWEEN all this the the PM was attending meetings, opening of parliement, went off to France to visit the new president, and was running the country. No matter what this person does even securing 68 flats in less then a week its never going to be good enough for some people.
According the newspapers she did nothing, it was all their fault YET people need to realise that this was unprecedented a fire never seen before the last one like it in the war.
We are told it was all down to cuts in police and fire, RUBBISH, within 6 minutes the fire service had attended a fire, then when it got out of hand over 200 firemen were battling that blaze how horrendous must it have been, did the newspapers dedicate a whole section APPLAUDING their bravery no… it was full of photo shoots from the other PM, and activists charging on Kingston town hall, etc etc.
People sadly use these tragic events for their own agendas. SHAME ON THEM.
The papers the headlines for these 68 flats was ridiculous.
Grenfell Tower: Victims to be rehoused in £2bn luxury Kensington apartment block
You have to read this:
The properties are “newly built social housing” at a site where private homes are on offer from £1,575,000 to £8.5m and boast a 24-hour concierge and a private cinema, according to the website of developer St Edward.///////////////////////////////////
Sounds wonderful doesnt it? T
The reality is the block of flats is SITUATED next to a complex which boasts, cinema, gym etc, i doubt very much that the people living in the social housing flats situated alongside the privately bought homes will be allowed to wander in and out of that lobby to enjoy any of the facilities.
When the regeneration was passed 70% of the flats had to go to social housing in a mix of sizes, and some to elderly the other 30% WOULD be for sale and privately owned and top of the range. So that is what it is.
The flats are perfectly good social housing flats the same as what Grenfall was.
BUT these are separate from the privately owned ones.
The newspapers make a headline sound perfectly wonderful. Take away any headlines you see, and then read way below to the smaller print then you will read the truth…Sadly the truth doesnt sell newspapers.
The newspapers are our new justice system sadly.
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I agree Tracey who has asked the victims what they want? People marching are not marching for their justice, they are marching for their own agendas SHAME ON THEM.
We need to support the victims and give them peace and quiet. The truth will come out, and if there is someone to blame for this tragedy then justice will be served.
They will want to move on, and being dragged constantly into a point scoring war between the left and right of this country is not going to bring anyone back is it, but we can all join together and learn by it and make sure it never happens again.
A simple thing like cladding a building wrapping it up like a nice duvet was meant to be a good thing, to help the tenants with their energy bills, it was not meant to be their shroud. The problem may well lay in cost cutting not in malice, trying to make 10 million stretch wide enough to upgrade a building for the tenants. I dont for one moment think that who ever was dealing with the Tender Bids had a clue as to what cladding even was.
Where does the fault lie? For me being a layman and working in engineering for a long time, and living with an engineer the fault lies in inspection.
What is the point of having a rule if it is clearly broken many times. How can combustible material be allowed to be used in a building over 18meters when there is a LAW which clearly states it is not allowed even in this country which was passed before this improvement.
How did it get passed inspection?
A good thing for the tenants has turned into the worse thing, and its not just Kensington its ALL over the country in different wards and councils.
No one obviously learnt from the fire in Dubai, which was caused through the exact same thing. Why? Was it head in hand and ignore, or did the councils who order just simply have trust in the contractors to do the job properly in the first place.
That is why we all need to wait now and see what happened.
In the meantime like you said support the victims, i have donated so have most of my friends, and we have had a car boot sale and the proceeds went to the victims donation pot. God bless them and all those who sadly lost their lives. I just hope we can have some peace for them.
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Personally, I like the idea of the press keeping up the pressure on Government for answers, because the residents concerns about safety were never listened to before the disaster and that appears to be part of the problem.
The public inquiry is welcome, but not if it drags on for years and comes up with the usual “lessons must be learnt”. Our free press will be watching and that can only be a good thing.
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The truth is the government was warned about the dangers of flammable cladding on high rise buildings but chose not to pass any laws forbidding its use - here’s an article on the subject from the Telegraph:
"The Select Committee on Environment, Transport and Regional Affairs - the Government department then presided over by Labour’s John Prescott - had gathered in July 1999 to hear evidence on the use of external cladding in high rise towers. The select committee suggested that it would be deeply irresponsible to wait until a disaster claimed many lives before introducing improvements to the cladding used and the way it was fixed to tall buildings…
Its [2000] report stated: “We do not believe that it should take a serious fire in which many people are killed before all reasonable steps are taken towards minimising the risks.
It added that all external cladding systems should either be “entirely non-combustible”, or “proven through full-scale testing not to pose an unacceptable level of risk in terms of fire spread”.
The select committee urged changes to the British Standards codes for the testing and use of cladding to reflect its disturbing findings.
Since the Grenfell Tower disaster the Government and Kensington and Chelsea council have insisted that all building regulations were up to date and complied with.
Rydon, which won the contract to refurbish the tower, before subcontracting work to several other firms, said it had met “all required building control, fire regulation and health and safety standards”…
At the same time evidence continues to emerge that the potential danger of external claddings was being ignored in the years that followed the select committee report of 2000.
Building safety experts for David Cameron’s Conservative government warned last year that the drive for greater energy efficiency meant more and more buildings were being wrapped in potentially combustible materials.
In a report published in April 2016 the Building Research Establishment (BRE), which works on fire investigations for the Department of Communities and Local Government, warned of an “increase in the volume of potentially combustible materials being applied” to buildings."
This is at Warnings over 'deathtrap' high-rise building cladding 'ignored' for decades
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As you have posted that the prime minister has been criticised no matter what she does, the head always gets the blame as for the newspapers, wouldn’t wrap a fish supper in them or wipe my *rse with them, but for a councilman to publicly blame tenants for the lack of sprinkler systems is socking, also Emma Croad voted against the specification change in 2014, Brian
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so many more blocks are being vacated now.
I saw a 72 year old woman, on the news, who has emphysima, who was left to sit in an chair all night. She was told she couldnt be re-housed as she has a dog. She asked Am I supposed to have my dog put down?
Absolutely not, I say!!!
The government will have to pay for all these now homeless people, to be housed in luxury apartments, if that`s all that are left.
pollsx